BimmerFest BMW Forum banner

1 - 20 of 74 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
The proportion of sales related to SUVs has increased significantly and BMW is no exception. At some point, residual value and resale values start to suffer when the market shrinks for sedans. So in the future would you consider:

1) An SUV?

2) A cross over or "estate", (station wagon in North America)?

3). A pick-up or related new entrant?

Personally, I find the 5 sedan perfect for me. It is not a sports car, but sporty enough with a lower profile to the ground which I like and a look I find very appealing. There are times when I wish I had an SUV for hauling things, but most of the time I can do it with my car or a rental. My wife has no interest in an SUV and drives a new Beetle to get around town, so I don't have the luxury of passing the responsibility off to her.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
614 Posts
No because I don't need one and they look boring. I'm not a middle aged soccer mom and prefer something that's more visually appealing and has better handling. I don't really care what the latest craze is.

If I needed extra space I***8217;d probably get an e class wagon or Volvo wagon or a mini van.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
No because I don't need one and they look boring. I'm not a middle aged soccer mom and prefer something that's more visually appealing and has better handling. I don't really care what the latest craze is.

If I needed extra space I'd probably get an e class wagon or Volvo wagon or a mini van.
Pretty cool ride for those soccer players.
 

·
Casual Fanatic
Joined
·
2,163 Posts
There is always going to be a market for sedans. Demographics and people's needs dictate vehicle sales and not everyone needs the kind of features that SUVs offer. You find the 5Series the perfect vehicle for you and so do a lot of other people, so not to worry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,719 Posts
My F10 has some shortcomings.

It's cramped. Me getting in and out is difficult. There's not enough leg room (shared between the front and back seats by moving the front seats). I'm 6'5" and the F10 is a three-person car when I'm in it. Even with 5' 6" Frau Putzer in the front passenger seat, there's not enough room to put a six-pack ice chest in the floor in front of the back seat behind her.

The other F10 shortcoming was the lack of a spare tire. I fixed that with a jury rig: the mini-spare rim off of an E70 X5 with a centering ring. There's sufficient trunk room, even with the spare, jack kit, and tool box. But, the lack of a flat trunk floor is disruptive.

Frau Putzer's G01 X3 30i has replaced my F10 as our primary family trip car, and even our primary in-town car. The ice chest thing is a big deal. I can have one of each side in the back. So, it's easy to grab a cold beer when we're traveling. With the back seat folded, "trunk" room almost unlimited. When we get where we're going, we can take another couple with us when we're out and about. It's also easier to get in and out of.

The X3 also blends in better than a 5 Series. That's important because car vandalism is a big problem where we live... for now. We're moving.

The X3, like any SUV, has a high center of gravity. That transfers a lot more weight when braking or turning fast. It's also heavy and has lousy tires... SUV tires. There a lot more "U" than "S" in any SUV. But that front bumper's ground clearance means that Frau Putzer doesn't smash the air dam into curbs in parking spaces.

After I replaced the OE Goodyear LS2 "touring" RFT's with Michelin PSS's, the 535i became a decent driving car. But, it's not a sports car. It's too big. So, it's too small to be a good sedan and too big to be a good sports car. The 535i also rides better than the X3. I don't let Frau Putzer drive my 535i. But, even if I did, I'd still rather take my 535i on a road trip if it was just me.

My 535i replaced an M3. I still enjoy the 535i. But, in 20/20 hindsight I wish I'd waited a few years and replaced my E46 M3 with an F82 M4. From here on out, we'll have a compact SUV "Frauwagen" that does SUV stuff good, and I'll have a small, two-door, go-fast car. I'm hoping the 535i will be replaced with a Porsche Carrera in four or five years. But, I could be happy with an M2 or an M4. The 911 is a better car, but not for the money. My next expensive car might be my last one. So, the 911 would be a bucket list check-off.

My 535i will be my last sedan. I might end up with a sub-compact, four-door hatchback as a beater, though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
There is always going to be a market for sedans. Demographics and people's needs dictate vehicle sales and not everyone needs the kind of features that SUVs offer. You find the 5Series the perfect vehicle for you and so do a lot of other people, so not to worry.
Well, indications are that sedans will be a scarce platform from North American OEMs. I would like to see BMW attempt a sedan with a hatch like the Audi A7. Of course, the design has to be appealing enough, which can be tough. Porsche struggled through it.
 

·
Stuart in Houston
Joined
·
650 Posts
I've driven 5 Series for decades. But I traded my last 550i (F10) for an X3 m40i. Not only no regrets, I love driving it.

I think making a "I'm not a soccer mom" comment is a little too flippant. Everyone has their own reasons for driving what they drive. Look at my sig below, I'm obviously an ardent sedan fan. But things change. I needed more ground clearance (<-big factor), I wanted a smoother driving car, I can use the cargo area and its easier access, I need to be able to tow on occasion. Many reasons, all leading to my getting an X3, my first SUV ever.

So yeah, it can happen. Do I miss that gorgeous V8? All the time. But honestly, that's about all I miss.


PS: I got in a friend's 5 the other day. First time I'd been in one since I got my X3 in October. Dayum, I had forgotten how low to the ground those cars are. It's really nice to get in a car, and not lower yourself into a car.:yikes: Another thing I love about my X3.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I've driven 5 Series for decades. But I traded my last 550i (F10) for an X3 m40i. Not only no regrets, I love driving it.

I think making a "I'm not a soccer mom" comment is a little too flippant. Everyone has their own reasons for driving what they drive. Look at my sig below, I'm obviously an ardent sedan fan. But things change. I needed more ground clearance (<-big factor), I wanted a smoother driving car, I can use the cargo area and its easier access, I need to be able to tow on occasion. Many reasons, all leading to my getting an X3, my first SUV ever.

So yeah, it can happen. Do I miss that gorgeous V8? All the time. But honestly, that's about all I miss.


PS: I got in a friend's 5 the other day. First time I'd been in one since I got my X3 in October. Dayum, I had forgotten how low to the ground those cars are. It's really nice to get in a car, and not lower yourself into a car.:yikes: Another thing I love about my X3.
The height difference is quite significant. My brother has an X5. It is up off the ground a significant bit more than the 5 Series. Since I purchased my cottage the shortcomings of a sedan have become more apparent. I am toying with the idea of migrating to the X5 next time. We'll see.
 

·
///Monkeyazz Duck
Joined
·
7,640 Posts
I ESCAPED from SUV's when the Little Quacks went to college. We've found an F31 Wagon, then a 428 GC perfectly adequate for toting around "stuff" (tailgate gear and the like) though with the rear seats folded you can get an amazing amount of stuff in a G30 when you pull out the spare tire cartridge. On those very rare occasions you need more capacity? That's why God invented Thule.

If I found myself in a position of ever really needing "space" again, a 640 GT would fit the bill nicely. Much better driving dynamics than an SUV, with the refinement of a 7 series.

Unfortunately, no one makes what I want for my next car: a $75,000 2-door with the refinement of a G30 (fit, finish, interior appointments, lack of road noise, killer stereo, luxury seats, glass or ceramic controls and acres of plush leather) meaningful performance and all the electronic gizmos. A 4 series coupe or vert is just too pedestrian. A BMW 8 Series or properly equipped Jaguar F Type is too much coin for a duck nearing retirement. An AMG E53 Coupe is a little closer to what I am willing to spend, but the design of all the current Benz products remind me of nothing so much as a dog poop that's been left out in the rain. P Car? A Panamera 4 is over $100,000, a 911 is over $125,000, and then you need to factor in the cost of hair plugs, gold chains and alimony.

If I could find a gently used CPO B6 Alpina, that could be a keeper.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,773 Posts
It's funny you ask. As you know, I started a thread about resale value of the five series sedans. I too have pondered whether to consider an SUV. We have one In the family already that is my wife's driver, a Lexus GS460. The resale value would no doubt be better.

But I have trouble with the idea of going to a heavier vehicle that I don't need. The one that would be ok would be an SQ5 Audi. Its an affordable performance SUV that is not too big and actually sits fairly low. But I still would say a S4 or 5 with the same engine and suspension has to be better because they are lighter and a better sports sedan.

For me it is not likely to happen. So the other extreme is to consider a sporty two door coupe. They seem to hold their value better than four doors. My theory is that people who used to buy sedans now but SUVs. But people buy two door coupes because they like something sportier, and the market has less choices, so the market is not over saturated with used exampes so they hold up better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,202 Posts
The proportion of sales related to SUVs has increased significantly and BMW is no exception. At some point, residual value and resale values start to suffer when the market shrinks for sedans. So in the future would you consider:

1) An SUV?

2) A cross over or "estate", (station wagon in North America)?

3). A pick-up or related new entrant?

Personally, I find the 5 sedan perfect for me. It is not a sports car, but sporty enough with a lower profile to the ground which I like and a look I find very appealing. There are times when I wish I had an SUV for hauling things, but most of the time I can do it with my car or a rental. My wife has no interest in an SUV and drives a new Beetle to get around town, so I don't have the luxury of passing the responsibility off to her.
No, I would not replace my 5 Series with an SUV and you probably shouldn't either given that you find the 5 sedan perfect for you. An SUV and a 5 Series are very different vehicles and you should own the one that works best for you. The closest there is to a middle ground would be the 5 Series Touring but you can't get it anymore in NA so it's not a factor. I guess they figure with SUVs being all the rage that no one would buy one. They may be right.
 

·
Premium Member
2018 540i MSport
Joined
·
8,748 Posts
Everyone has their own reasons for driving what they drive.
Not sure what is driving the massive switch to SUV's in general. Surely everyone driving one doesn't "need" one, for the practical reasons (storage, off-roading, i.e., "utility" factor). I think many reasons are the old "keeping up (and surpassing) the Jones's". People who would never spend over a certain point for a "car" are plunking down thousands for an SUV -- the bigger the better (in their minds). It's an interesting phenomenon, I do think a lot related to competition. At this point, I still have no desire for an SUV, but I can see a possible future of more dwindling of sedan sales, audience availability for resale, etc.
 

·
dce
Joined
·
609 Posts
Probably not a SUV (my wife has one, so I’m kinda like herr putzer in that regard), but I’ve thought about getting a pick-me-up truck as backup. I can’t bring myself to toss a couple bags of mulch into my G30, plus maybe for driving in a 1 inch snow storm (which becomes a disaster around here) so the fools don’t ding my baby.


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,073 Posts
I just picked up my new 540 this week. Haven't had a chance to update my avatar and signature yet.

Obviously if I wanted an SUV, I would have gotten one. Plus, my wife has an SUV so that makes it a moot point.

However, I do like the new X5 a lot. I really dig the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT a lot too...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,890 Posts
Not sure what is driving the massive switch to SUV's in general. Surely everyone driving one doesn't "need" one, for the practical reasons (storage, off-roading, i.e., "utility" factor). I think many reasons are the old "keeping up (and surpassing) the Jones's". People who would never spend over a certain point for a "car" are plunking down thousands for an SUV -- the bigger the better (in their minds). It's an interesting phenomenon, I do think a lot related to competition. At this point, I still have no desire for an SUV, but I can see a possible future of more dwindling of sedan sales, audience availability for resale, etc.

I read an interesting article on this topic and a large part of what is driving the switch is the fact that americans are increasingly heavier and more out of shape as they get older... so they want an easier entrance and exit to the vehicle.

Older out of shape people dont want to "fall in, and climb out of" a sedan, when they can have the higher ride height of a crossover / SUV. They say they like the space, but for many, the comfort of getting in higher is crucial.. and many dont even realize thats whats driving it.


Big trucks are the same thing, but in reverse (climb in, and fall out of). Crossovers / mid size SUVs have wider seats, bigger doors, and are in general easier for people to get into and out of.

The "out of shape" comment is not just for old people , as americans in general are less "fit" than we used to be.

So, thats one big reason.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Tom Libby from IHS:

Another factor in the pullback on sedans is the growing need for companies to invest in new technologies such as electric cars and self-driving vehicles.

"The need to invest in autonomous and electric vehicles did not exist 10 years ago," said Tom Libby, senior analyst with IHS Markit.

Libby said he doesn't think that Ford and GM are prepared to exit the segment completely. But experts agree sedans will get less and less attention and investment from the Detroit automakers. That will only make them less competitive with foreign sedan models in the future, which will mean less demand, which will in turn lead to less plant capacity.

The pull back from the sedan by Ford, General Motor (GM)and Fiat Chrysler (FCAU) is only likely to accelerate in coming years said Rebecca Lindland, executive analyst with Kelley Blue Book.
"There's no indication that the sedan will be revitalized because there's no indication we're going to shift back to sedans," she said. "The U.S. automakers are shifting investment where it needs to go."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,773 Posts
I ESCAPED from SUV's when the Little Quacks went to college. We've found an F31 Wagon, then a 428 GC perfectly adequate for toting around "stuff" (tailgate gear and the like) though with the rear seats folded you can get an amazing amount of stuff in a G30 when you pull out the spare tire cartridge. On those very rare occasions you need more capacity? That's why God invented Thule.

If I found myself in a position of ever really needing "space" again, a 640 GT would fit the bill nicely. Much better driving dynamics than an SUV, with the refinement of a 7 series.

Unfortunately, no one makes what I want for my next car: a $75,000 2-door with the refinement of a G30 (fit, finish, interior appointments, lack of road noise, killer stereo, luxury seats, glass or ceramic controls and acres of plush leather) meaningful performance and all the electronic gizmos. A 4 series coupe or vert is just too pedestrian. A BMW 8 Series or properly equipped Jaguar F Type is too much coin for a duck nearing retirement. An AMG E53 Coupe is a little closer to what I am willing to spend, but the design of all the current Benz products remind me of nothing so much as a dog poop that's been left out in the rain. P Car? A Panamera 4 is over $100,000, a 911 is over $125,000, and then you need to factor in the cost of hair plugs, gold chains and alimony.

If I could find a gently used CPO B6 Alpina, that could be a keeper.
You and I have been doing the same homework on two door coupes. The Audi S5 makes the short list. I would like an RS5, but more than I want to spend. A Dodge Challenger SRT 8 is actually an interesting car, but is a freaking Dodge! A Hellcat gives it some credibility though! But you are right, unless $100K is in the budget, I***8217;m not knocked over by any of them.

A close friend of mine is about to order an 850 for his wife, and they put VERY low miles on their cars. Maybe used? He has an S550 Coupe that I***8217;d love to buy...but not sure I want a car like that out of warranty. And a CPO that I would buy is still probably too expensive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
You and I have been doing the same homework on two door coupes. The Audi S5 makes the short list. I would like an RS5, but more than I want to spend. A Dodge Challenger SRT 8 is actually an interesting car, but is a freaking Dodge! A Hellcat gives it some credibility though! But you are right, unless $100K is in the budget, I'm not knocked over by any of them.

A close friend of mine is about to order an 850 for his wife, and they put VERY low miles on their cars. Maybe used? He has an S550 Coupe that I'd love to buy...but not sure I want a car like that out of warranty. And a CPO that I would buy is still probably too expensive.
I would like to see a 5 series coupe. Different than a 4 series and not quite an 8 series.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,719 Posts
...

A close friend of mine is about to order an 850 for his wife, and they put VERY low miles on their cars. Maybe used? He has an S550 Coupe that I'd love to buy...but not sure I want a car like that out of warranty. And a CPO that I would buy is still probably too expensive.
People who buy $100k cars usually don't keep them that long. Since he's a friend, you have much less risk of buying a lemon (bad engine, been in a wreck, flood, lightening strike, etc.) Modern German cars' maintenance costs between 50k and 100k miles are reasonable. Yeah, there's a risk of something bad happening, but it's remote. After 100k miles, they can be as expensive as a new one.

My 535i's depreciation, maintenance, and capital costs were about $1/mile for the first four years (at around 12.5k miles/year). Even budgeting $2k/10k miles for maintenance and repairs, it should be about $0.50/mile for the second 50k miles. My per mile costs spiked in the fifth year, but that's because I only drove it about 6.5k miles instead of my normal 12.5k miles. My per month costs are still steadily going down, though. The fifth year was $528/month, down from $616/month in the fourth year. Since new, my depreciation, maintenance, and capital costs have been an average of $957/month. That since new cost is about what a lease would have been. So, I'm just now getting to the point where owning is cheaper than leasing.

An acquaintance of mine has a Porsche Turbo S. But, lightening struck near the car and went directly under the car through some low-voltage outside lighting cables that went under the driveway. So, the car's demonically possessed now. I'm wondering, if he keeps his beater (Turbo S) in the driveway, what the Hell is in the garage?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,581 Posts
I'm pretty tall from the waist up, like a regular 6'10" Tall. The X5 and perhaps Chevy Suburban/Tahoe are the few SUV/CUV's that I can get in and out of without taking my head off and putting it on my lap. SUV's are made for people who want to sit up high, and not necessarily for tall or wide people. Hyundai and Kia cars and SUV's tend to fit pretty well but everything else short of a 911 likes to cater to shorter people. My f10 is barely tall enough for me to get in and out without much trouble. I need a lower seat to minimize "head toss" that especially sporty SUV's specialize in and cause me all sorts of neck/headache trouble. My friend's early Cayenne was torture to ride in due to the extra pendulum effect of sitting high up with a stiff suspension.

Americans haven't changed that much but the current lozenge-like car designs have since the age of large sedans in the 1950's through 1980's, mostly due to CAFE and other government rules for cars, while SUV's have fewer restrictions. I find SUV's to be merely heavier, worse handling versions of similarly equipped and spacious cars/station wagons, but the newest ones are improving in design and performance.

I really liked my 1993 Suburban but Chevy made it smaller so its not as spacious or comfortable today, and I believe its in its last year as a full-frame truck. I would consider an X5 but don't trust the price of fuel to stay low without a diesel or perhaps hybrid. The 535d is my "executive car" and serves my needs well. Would prefer a smaller A-pillar for better visibility, that sort of thing, and agree with the need for a spare tire built into the design like my W211 diesel with the full size spare. We'll see what is available when the need occurs for another vehicle. My 535d only has 52,000 miles on it.

PL
 
1 - 20 of 74 Posts
Top