BMW Forum - BimmerFest BMW Forums banner
Cancel
Create thread New Garage Forums

No start problem

Jump to Latest
17K views 53 replies 18 participants last post by  Sroor9001  
#1 ·
I need some help here.
I needed to leave this morning, and the car did not start. The starter would turn the engine over, but it would not fire the engine.
Thought I might have a weak battery. Charged the battery, and same thing. I was quite stubborn and hold the key in the start position for quite long - the engine turned over but did not start at all. (could I have "drowned" the cylinders with gas?)
Thought I might read some codes, but nope. There is not a single code!!!!
I am stumped. The battery is strong. The spark plugs were changed at around 70 k miles and now I have around 85 k miles. The fuel filter has been changed also last year. Oxigen sensors about 2 years ago. I only use premium gasoline. Last time I drove the car was 2 days ago, and there was absolutely no problem with it. No stumbling, no rough idling, nothing.
Not sure where to start now.
Car is 2003/530 stock.
 
#2 ·
Good thing you didn't hold the starter for to long. I don't think it's possible to flood but I might be wrong however trying to start a car for over a minute is not good for your cat converter.


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp
 
#5 ·
Given your symptoms, I am guessing fuel as the root cause vice air or electrical. Air issues usually result in poor running and electrical issues won't usually affect all cylinders at once. Can you check if the fuel pump is operational? :dunno: This one is a bit unusual. Please post your outcome.
 
#15 ·
DominguesE30 said:
Do u ever run the car dry?

Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp
Click to expand...
Never.
I also posted this on the other forum, where I got lucky (maybe). It seems when the car is cold and you start it, then turn the engine off, you might experience the problem I have - documented by by somebody and Poolman told me the story.
It is almost the same script as mine: I parked the car Friday after work, Saturday I had to move it a few yards and Sunday it would not start. Seems there is a workaround for this problem too. I will try tomorow after work and post my findings.
 
J
#14 ·
Yes, I did !

And that is the most regretful thing you can do your car. NEVER run the car with the low fuel light on. It not only makes your fuel pump suck up all the muck from the bottom of your fuel tank but HEATS up the fuel pump as it needs fuel to cool.

So, now I never allow my car to fuel to go below 1/4 tank.
 
#16 ·
Hrm, I thought I read a possible solution for this scenario (not starting after moving the car a few yards then shutting down) on this very forum itself just the other day! From memory, it involved cranking the car with the throttle floored. Should start after around 30s. Seems like you know about this already. Good luck!
 
#17 ·
So it's a no go.
Pulled the spark plugs, cleaned them, put some engine oil in each cylinder, buttoned her up, and she almost started - or sounded like it, but very soon she went to the status-quo. Just turninng by the crank without firing up. This leads me to believe something is wrong with the firing of the coils/spark plugs. Not sure what it is, but dealer, here I come. Again, no codes. It's a lovely machine which tells you everything is fine, but she don't start.

Like in the hospital: The surgey went perfect, but the patient is dead.
 
1
#21 ·
For my own edification... why would you pour engine oil in the cylinders? I mean, what is that meant to determine? I'd be afraid to do that out of risk of fouling the plugs and the chance it may complicate troubleshooting the original problem.

Also.... if you take a look at the link I provided earlier, they mention checking the cam position sensor as a common factor in the "won't start" scenario.
 
#22 · (Edited)
There was fuel smell after attempting to start the car. I believe there is no spark. I did not test this, but the car is still under warranty until February next year. If it is the fuel pump, I will not pay for it. If it is the ECM, I will not pay for it.
If the car would not be under warranty I would have torn and tested more things than what I did for now. I am only frustrated, that's all.

For Pleiades: I have no CEL, and no stored codes. This rules out any known hiccups these cars can exhibit. If the CPS are gone, a code is stored. If a major vacum leak is there, code is stored. If the MAF is gone, a code is stored. If the oxygen sensors are bad, a code is stored etc. I checked different forums and there are tons of "no start" threads/issues. The only ones that are similar to mine point to a compression loss due to cylinder washout.
The oil (in very sparse amount) is meant to "seal" the pistons in case of "washout" - no compression. Poolman directed me to this - same situation happened to othe BMW owners and this was an effective method of creating some compression. It was discussed on different other boards - I was able to track those posts. The oil is burned away instantly. You do not pour ounces, just a 1/4 maybe 1/2 of a straw in each cylinder. After that, the engine almost started - it was a very noticeable change. Again, I thought I had it, but probably after the little oil went away, the original symptom came back - just cranking to an eternity with no sign of the engine getting spark.
 
1
#23 · (Edited)
Okay, I'm better enlightened now.

As to whether the car is getting spark or not, don't know about these e39s but on older/other cars it was easy to pull a plug, keep it attached to the ignition wire/coil, ground the plug (plug threads against the engine head) and see if it sparks when the engine is cranked. I haven't tried this with a modern car but maybe there is a "safe" (for the car and you) way to do that?

I understand you might not want to troubleshoot elusive problems if the car is in warranty. Good luck, hope you get it fixed quick.
 
#24 ·
Yes, it's layed out in the Bentley. You need also another "special" tool if you want to go by the "bible", but the old way should work if you take care not to get zapped, or having gasoline around you.
I just did not want to mess with it any further. Had I loss of ignition on 1 plug, I might have dwelled deeper. But to have no sparks, or no fuel - I don't want to change these items out of my own pocket.
 
#25 ·
It's almost impossible for me to help you as you already know a lot and have had a lot of help.

The only thing I can reassure you of it's gott'a be one of these:
- Gas
- Air
- Spark
- Compression
- Timing

And, well, you've already looked at all but the timing.
- GAS: Your Shell gas and fuel pump & filter were checked already
- AIR: No MAF or vacuum codes & new O2 sensors - but you suspect this
- SPARK: Battery was checked, new plugs were looked at
- COMPRESSION: Cylinder wash was looked at, oil was squirted in,
- TIMING: ? could this possibly be a cause ?

Wow. While it has got to be one of those five things, you've looked at many of the causes. I see you've suspected gas and spark, as an improper air ratio would cause DTCs. Compression and timing don't often change catastrophically.

But still, it HAS to be one of those! Dunno which though. :(
 
#28 ·
Thanks Aca. Tried different things, but as I said, if it was something minor (fuse, sparkplug, 1 (one) bad coil, etc) to replace, I would have done from my own budget. As it turns out this needs more time and probably a deeper budget, which I am not willing to invest, because the car is still under warranty. I am almost 100% it will be covered. So wether it's a bad fuel pump, a bad ECM, a bad starter (high resistance - like in your thread you posted), I am not willing to spend money, time to diagnose and pinpoint and time to R&R. That's why the car is still under warranty. I just wanted to know what the heck is wrong with it. I will find out in the next few days.

16valex said:
Doru,

Did you put the pedal to the metal and keep it there while you're cranking until it fired up?
Click to expand...
I did that too and no go. I actually killed the battery in 2 days trying to start the car up. Then recharged it. I'm done with it. The dealer can have all the fun he wants with it and submit the bill to the insurance company as a nice X-mas gift.
 
#29 ·
Update:
Car is up and running.
What happened: When it's cold (and the engine is cold - as in parked below 37° F), the injectors can leak fuel. By just driving it a few yards, and stopping the engine, the injectors were cold and leaked a fair amount of fuel in the cylinders. The dealership had to clean everything inside and the plugs as well (I cleaned the plugs, but not the inside). So, live and learn. If it's cold and you don't need the , don't start her up to just move her. Once started, let her running until she's hot, so as to prevent injector leakage. Does not matter if it's i6 or v8. This comes from the horses mouth, aka BMW.

Hope this little tidbit will help others.
 
#30 · (Edited)
This solution is interesting as we've had the discussion many, many times (pretty much every winter) about the best way to deal with starting and warming up the car in very cold weather. I've always thought/heard that it's best to start the car, let it idle for a few seconds (up to 30) and then drive it at low RPM until the needle moves to 12 o'clock. Granted this gives you coolant and not oil temp, but the consensus is it's best to drive. Are you saying they told you to leave it at idle until the engine is warm, or to drive it? Or to do either as long as you don't start it and shut it down quickly?

This begs another questions: Since one of the worst things for the motor is to over-rev it when the oil temp is cold, how long, on average, does it take for the oil to come to proper operating temperature when it's quite cold outside? Like below freezing? Obv this will change based on whether it's 29F or 0F, but does anyone have an answer?

And, as an addendum, driving in cold weather and shutting the car off before the motor reaches proper operating temp is what causes (or at least a big cause of) failure in the oil separator (CCV).
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#32 ·
Josh,basically what I was told is that the injectors after a certain age, will leak gas at cold temps. This does not mean that after the car was driven and turned off (after it had reached operating temperatures) the injectors will leak gas. They will leak gas in exactly the conditions I described: turn on a cold engine, drive it a few yards, or let her idle 10-15 seconds, shut her off. In this moment, the pesky injectors will leak gas (not sure what rate at), and you're done. The engine will be flodded. The dealership told me the engine was literally full with gas. Remember, I said that I could smell the gas when I tried to troubleshoot it, but it never crossed my mind I could have ended up with a flodded engine.

So, when it's cold, once the revs drop after you started the car (+/- 15-20 seconds), start driving until the engine starts warming up. Once the engine is warm - and I believe not necessarily hot, you probably can shut her off without the injectors leaking gas - the injectors are warm now. The BMW master tech told me that the leak occurs only when the engine is started, then turned off, not giving the injectors a chance to warm up. The pressure in the fuel system is 70 psi, and worn injectors are not able to seal/hold back that pressure at cold. That's what I did.
 
#33 ·
doru said:
The dealership told me the engine was literally full with gas. ...The pressure in the fuel system is 70 psi, and worn injectors are not able to seal/hold back that pressure at cold. That's what I did.
Click to expand...
Hi Doru,
Thanks for getting back to us.

I'm confused how that much gasoline could flood an engine ... you'd have non-compressible liquid in the cylinders if it was as bad as what I think you said ... and that can't possibly be a good thing.

Also, wouldn't all that gasoline fluid leak into the motor oil? That doesn't seem like a good thing either - although maybe it burns off in the first hot drive.

Lastly, didn't this take a few days? Wouldn't all that gasoline have evaporated after a few days?

Confused.
Bluebee
 
#34 ·
BTW, look at this "E39 flooded - will not start" description from 2007 on another forum:

"Am having a similar issue with my 1999 E39 as I have with my previous car (Volvo 850 T5).

Car was started and then switched off several times without driving and now when you try to start it just keeps turning and does not fire correctly. On my old car the exact same issue happened. You can smell the petrol (gas). On my old car a mechanic took out the fuse of the fuel pump and eventually after a lot of trying got the car started. Have tried the same on my E39 but no luck..."

A few posts later, someone suggests:

"The problem that occurs when a car is flooded is that the gas that is still in the cylinders is thinner than oil. This causes low/no compression. To raise the compression in the motor you either have to wait till ALL the gas in there dissipates (grab a lawn chair). Or you can raise the compression in the motor and get it started.

SO you've decided to raise the compression and not be without a car for 3 weeks. Great. All you have to do is get a quart of oil and a turkey baster. Pull all your spark plugs, drop some (not a lot, but a fair amount, probably around 2tbsp) oil down each spark plug hole. The turkey baster will help with this. Put your old plugs back in, close everything up, and get in your car. Start it up, don't burn out your starter, it should catch fairly quickly, but you may have to give it some gas or lay on the starter a bit. You're going to be burning A LOT of oil when you first start it up and probably for a few minutes after. Rev it a bit or drive down the road. You are going to foul your plugs up a bit doing this, but your car will start. It will smoke like a bitch till that gas finds its way out of your oil.

Replace your plugs and do an oil change as soon as you can after doing this, but make sure the car isn't throwing out any smoke before you change your plugs/oil.

If the car is REALLY flooded (you can smell lots of gas on your dipstick), change the oil before you raise the compression. This is going to take awhile since the motor won't be hot. You're looking at about 4 hours to drain since the oil is cold.

If it tries to start and almost catches but then dies out, you'll have to repeat the process."
 
BMW Forum - BimmerFest BMW Forums
posts
12M
members
800K
Since
2001
A forum community dedicated to BMW owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about Bimmerfest events, BMW production numbers, programming, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! Bringing the BMW community together.
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2012) E39 (1997 - 2003) E46 (1999 - 2006) E36 (1991 - 1999) E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)