So.. I noticed when I first got my car and took it to get inspected for registration, that they couldnt read the vin on the dash due to condensation. I have since then noticed in the mornings a small amount of moisture on the bottom left side of the windshield/dash. Now I am noticing that my carpet is wet. Pretty darn wet... i was wondering if this could be due to a leak in the windshield gasket? or is there another common area where moisture can enter the cabin the that general area?
Nline6
From the VERY best of E39 Links
Water on the rear driver side carpet after rain due to leaking vapor barrier in the door
Water on the front passenger carpet after rain due to leaking sunroof
And tons more how to diagnose and fix.
Water on the rear driver side carpet after rain due to leaking vapor barrier in the door
Water on the front passenger carpet after rain due to leaking sunroof
And tons more how to diagnose and fix.
- Click on the VERY best of E39 Links (or, in the E39 wiki common issues): (SEE NOTE 1)
- Note 1: It's more efficient when you set your Bimmerfest control panel to the maximum number of posts per page so a single search will find what you need. Click on your Bimmerfest "User CP -> Edit Options -> Number of Posts to Show Per Page -> 80 -> Save Changes".
- Press your operating system "find" hotkey (i.e., "control f" in Windows & Linux & "command f" on the Mac) (SEE NOTE 2)
- NOTE 2: With Firefox, the slash (/) hotkey, in addition to "control f", does the same search, without the extra overhead.
- NOTE 2: With Firefox, the slash (/) hotkey, in addition to "control f", does the same search, without the extra overhead.
- Type the search term, e.g., "sunroof" (sans quotes) & the cursor focus will jump to the first match (SEE NOTE 3)
- NOTE 3: On Windows & Linux, the "F3" hotkey will jump to the next find; "shift F3" will reverse the find; "enter" will open the current link. If the search fails, the search term will highlight in red.
First determine whether the leak is due to clogging. Inject a very small amount of water into the small drainhole located near the front left corner of the sunroof cassette (open your sunroof and look in that area from the outside, you should be able to see a small hole in the side, about 2 inches back from the corner). If water drips out from behind your front wheelwell after doing this, the drain is -not- plugged.
However, it could very well be that the draintube from the front left corner of the sun/moonroof cassette is loose, i.e. not attached water-tight to the cassette nipple. If that is the case, nothing has to be clogged for it to leak water down through the driver-side A pillar and onto the dash and floorwell.
You can diagnose further by unscrewing all the bits (A pillar cover, ceiling handle, sunvisor & clip, central console stuff) and pulling the corner of your headliner down just enough to peek in. If it's loose, the draintube connector will have a drop or two of water or the area on/around it will feel damp. [If you do this, remove the negative cable from your battery as this area of the car has airbag hardware in there that you don't want to trigger.]
Fix is to re-attach the tube connector to the cassette nipple using some strong sealant like the Permatex stuff. Plus if you like you can loop a ziptie around that, but first you'll need to get in there and determine what you're dealing with.
DO NOT start sticking wires etc down into the sunroof drainhole; doing that can dislodge the draintube connection further down. Something more flexible (neoprene cord etc.) might be safer...
Just remembered another possibility.... Remove the drivers-side cabin air filter assembly (including the base, like you would if preparing to add brake fluid). Is that chamber full of water? If it is, you will need to feel down under the brake booster for a small nickel-size drainhole in the sheet metal and unclog it. Debris gets down in there somehow and if water accumulates, it can leak into the driver-side floorwell and also flood your brake booster and get water into your intake manifold from there.
However, it could very well be that the draintube from the front left corner of the sun/moonroof cassette is loose, i.e. not attached water-tight to the cassette nipple. If that is the case, nothing has to be clogged for it to leak water down through the driver-side A pillar and onto the dash and floorwell.
You can diagnose further by unscrewing all the bits (A pillar cover, ceiling handle, sunvisor & clip, central console stuff) and pulling the corner of your headliner down just enough to peek in. If it's loose, the draintube connector will have a drop or two of water or the area on/around it will feel damp. [If you do this, remove the negative cable from your battery as this area of the car has airbag hardware in there that you don't want to trigger.]
Fix is to re-attach the tube connector to the cassette nipple using some strong sealant like the Permatex stuff. Plus if you like you can loop a ziptie around that, but first you'll need to get in there and determine what you're dealing with.
DO NOT start sticking wires etc down into the sunroof drainhole; doing that can dislodge the draintube connection further down. Something more flexible (neoprene cord etc.) might be safer...
Just remembered another possibility.... Remove the drivers-side cabin air filter assembly (including the base, like you would if preparing to add brake fluid). Is that chamber full of water? If it is, you will need to feel down under the brake booster for a small nickel-size drainhole in the sheet metal and unclog it. Debris gets down in there somehow and if water accumulates, it can leak into the driver-side floorwell and also flood your brake booster and get water into your intake manifold from there.
Hi Pleiades,
I added a link to your nice test post to these in the bestlinks for reference in the future:
- How to repair & reset the sunroof (1) (2) (3) & how to fix sun roof rattles (1) & how to test & fix moonroof leaks (1) (2) (3) causing water on the front passenger carpet & how to remove the roof headliner (1)
I poured a small amount of water in the hole and it drained down below the fender well, Also I checked under the cabin filter and that is bone dry. I guess this me to pull back the headliner and take a look at whats in there. Are there any other places it could be coming from?
As Vin M pointed out, these wonderfully engineered e39s also can leak through the vapor barriers inside their doors, including the fronts.
Does your headliner ever get damp or show water stains at the top of the A pillar?
Because you mentioned condensation on the lower left corner of your winshield/dash, I still think it could be a loose drainpipe on that corner of the sun/moonroof cassette but it might .... might ...... be a poor windshield seal. Not the "gasket." That rubber molding around the windshield is not water-tight anyway. If you have a windshield installed, the technician will run a bead of caulk-like adhesive around the edge before dropping the new windshield in place. Maybe you'd have a leak but he'd have to be really sloppy to let that happen.
Does your headliner ever get damp or show water stains at the top of the A pillar?
Because you mentioned condensation on the lower left corner of your winshield/dash, I still think it could be a loose drainpipe on that corner of the sun/moonroof cassette but it might .... might ...... be a poor windshield seal. Not the "gasket." That rubber molding around the windshield is not water-tight anyway. If you have a windshield installed, the technician will run a bead of caulk-like adhesive around the edge before dropping the new windshield in place. Maybe you'd have a leak but he'd have to be really sloppy to let that happen.
Headliner is clean and dry, with no sign of moisture past or present. I know the likely hood of it being being the windshield is small. I just am not sure where else to look? I mean its soaked, but then again I live in Portland, and it rains a lot. Also I may not have noticed the leak untill it got really bad. Where else can I look?
Did you check your door's vapor barrier yet? I skimmed thru this thread and I thought it was mentioned...and I saw replies to checking the windshield and sunroof drains...but I don't recall reading if the vapor barrier was checked.
If routine winterizing maintenance of lubricating the rubber & flocked gaskets around the doors aren't done annually...these parts (especially the flocked gasket along the base of the door's windows) lose their lubricity. Plus, the car doors are designed that the water that runs down the glass some will remain on the exterior of the door, and some will run down inside the door. The vapor barrier normally keeps the flow of this water inside the cavity of the door which will then drain out of the holes in the bottom of the door.
If the adhesive that secures the vapor barrier to the door fails...then the path of this water will flow into the cabin of the car instead of into the bottom of the door. This is what cause the carpet and floor well to get soaked.
If you were to remove the interior door panel then shut the door...you will see that the vapor barrier is above and on the inside of the door gaskets. If the vapor barrier is not adhered along the bottom...water will flow from beneath the VB and into the floor panel (right above the rocker panel). But if the VB is secured...the water's path moves it to the bottom of the door to the drain holes on the exterior side of the door gaskets...then onto the rocker panel...out to the ground.
CHECK YOUR VAPOR BARRIER.
If routine winterizing maintenance of lubricating the rubber & flocked gaskets around the doors aren't done annually...these parts (especially the flocked gasket along the base of the door's windows) lose their lubricity. Plus, the car doors are designed that the water that runs down the glass some will remain on the exterior of the door, and some will run down inside the door. The vapor barrier normally keeps the flow of this water inside the cavity of the door which will then drain out of the holes in the bottom of the door.
If the adhesive that secures the vapor barrier to the door fails...then the path of this water will flow into the cabin of the car instead of into the bottom of the door. This is what cause the carpet and floor well to get soaked.
If you were to remove the interior door panel then shut the door...you will see that the vapor barrier is above and on the inside of the door gaskets. If the vapor barrier is not adhered along the bottom...water will flow from beneath the VB and into the floor panel (right above the rocker panel). But if the VB is secured...the water's path moves it to the bottom of the door to the drain holes on the exterior side of the door gaskets...then onto the rocker panel...out to the ground.
CHECK YOUR VAPOR BARRIER.
Wet floors cause: moonroof drain design flaw- Class Action Suit!??
EVERYONE with an E-39 model (and undetermined list of others, including 3-series
PLEASE pay attention to one of the BIGGEST COVER-UPS BMW HAS PERPETRATED.
WATER COLLECTING IN FOOTWELLS ON EITHER SIDE, FRONT OR REAR is mostly likely CAUSED BY THE FRONT DRAINS design flaws on the left and right side of the MOONROOF.
-The drain can become plugged (has no screen and is completely undersized to handle its job in heavy rain).
-IF wear or hardening of the moonroof seal is part of the issue, it unfortunately takes as little as a year or two for the sunroof seal to allow enough water to pass through and around the drain tube to allow as much as 2 inches of water in the rear foot wells after soaking the front carpenters.
-The angle the car is parked determines which side of the car gets flooded.
-My wet nightmares saga began in 2003 when I bought a "Certified" 2000 528i.
The nightmare continues after many misdiagnoses, useless repairs, disputes with dealer and BMW corporate.
PLEASE CONTACT ME IF YOU HAVE THESE PROBLEMS OR are CONCERNED ABOUT POTENTIALLY HAVING THEM. No BMW moonroof has been proven immune!
I INTEND TO INITIATE A CLASS ACTION SUIT:
numerous top managers at BMW have remained suspiciously silent on the topic and customer service refuses to directly address the issue, put any statements in writing or provide any warranty beyond 2 years for so called repairs that do not address the defect.
1000's of people are being victimized.
EVERYONE with an E-39 model (and undetermined list of others, including 3-series
PLEASE pay attention to one of the BIGGEST COVER-UPS BMW HAS PERPETRATED.
WATER COLLECTING IN FOOTWELLS ON EITHER SIDE, FRONT OR REAR is mostly likely CAUSED BY THE FRONT DRAINS design flaws on the left and right side of the MOONROOF.
-The drain can become plugged (has no screen and is completely undersized to handle its job in heavy rain).
-IF wear or hardening of the moonroof seal is part of the issue, it unfortunately takes as little as a year or two for the sunroof seal to allow enough water to pass through and around the drain tube to allow as much as 2 inches of water in the rear foot wells after soaking the front carpenters.
-The angle the car is parked determines which side of the car gets flooded.
-My wet nightmares saga began in 2003 when I bought a "Certified" 2000 528i.
The nightmare continues after many misdiagnoses, useless repairs, disputes with dealer and BMW corporate.
PLEASE CONTACT ME IF YOU HAVE THESE PROBLEMS OR are CONCERNED ABOUT POTENTIALLY HAVING THEM. No BMW moonroof has been proven immune!
I INTEND TO INITIATE A CLASS ACTION SUIT:
numerous top managers at BMW have remained suspiciously silent on the topic and customer service refuses to directly address the issue, put any statements in writing or provide any warranty beyond 2 years for so called repairs that do not address the defect.
1000's of people are being victimized.
I will have to figure out how to carefully remove the door panel, and then i will check the vapor barrier. I am pretty sure its not the sunroof drains. It seemes to be draining just fine. I poured colored water down and it all came out. I would have noticed if there was blue stains or seepage. I rains A LOT in Portland, so this needs to be fixed asap. I work a bunch and dont always have time to tinker with my car so I have been trying to research as much as I can and I am not finding many other culprits.
I know it would visually suck...but you can temporarily reduce or almost completely stop the leakage (if it's the vapor barrier) by using painter's tape along the bottom of the window (on the door that's leaking) and prevent water from running down inside the door cavity...until you can get to fixing the VB. That may beat trying to fight the growth of mold inside the car and completely ruining the carpet and padding beneath the carpet.
Don't use duct tape or other tape that has a strong adhesive...it will mess up your paint...but painter's tape is made to be pulled up without damaging what it is adhered to.
You can also do this temporarily and spray water on that door's glass...and while inside, you can see where the water is leaking past the VB (again, if the VB is the culprit).
Good luck.
Don't use duct tape or other tape that has a strong adhesive...it will mess up your paint...but painter's tape is made to be pulled up without damaging what it is adhered to.
You can also do this temporarily and spray water on that door's glass...and while inside, you can see where the water is leaking past the VB (again, if the VB is the culprit).
Good luck.
can the VB really cause that bad of a leak? I think I am going to try to put a plastic barrier over the inside and hit it with the hose and see what happends.
I feel stupid, I went out to my car on my break and felt up under the door panel, bone dry. I have noticed water on my seat once or twice though, so looking at the main door gasket i notice that its pretty shot about where the seatbelt clip is, (slammed in the door probably) and it looks pretty bad indeed. Could this be the main cause of my problems? After un clipping the bottom of the door panel and seeing that it was all dry inside I am doubting its the vapor barrier. I used a length of backer rodd to fill in the void of the tattered gasket, which seems to work well. input??
There was dampness in my carpet, after last weeks heavy rain. I removed the door panel and low and behold, the vapor barrier was coming off. I removed the old, put on the new sticky stuff (3m roll) thanks to the the BEST OF threads. It will probably never rain again, but...
A very easy, but you must wear gloves, do-it-yourselfer...
A very easy, but you must wear gloves, do-it-yourselfer...
Attachments
A lot of rain overflows the drain-water can leak at screw for roof track
You had tried pouring a little water...be brave...use more and put your finger on the hole and see if water flows throught he screw holes in the track that the roof runs on and into the pillar itself instead of the tube in the pillar. ]
Moisture near the windshield could just be condensation. :tsk:
You had tried pouring a little water...be brave...use more and put your finger on the hole and see if water flows throught he screw holes in the track that the roof runs on and into the pillar itself instead of the tube in the pillar. ]
Moisture near the windshield could just be condensation. :tsk:
I am now doubting its the main door seal. The problem with finding the leak is that I cant find any trace or direction to its source. It all seems to be wettest right behind the rubber part of the carpet on the drivers side. The back seats not wet, either is the passanger side front. I am glad summer is coming but spring can be a wet one and I would rather fix it. The piece of foam I used to patch my door seal did a great job. but I am still getting drops of water on my seat, It seems to fall on the side bolster door side, and slide down to the bottom cushin of the seat. Mayber its coming from the B pillar somewhere?
Problem with Leak problems is there is not one cause.
Even if your window weather seal was a problem, any e39 can get more water during a heavy rain than the sunroof front drains can handle...if you watch your roof when gently slamming a door closed (with the windows closed), see if the glass roof pops up a bit...
my leaky boat has a loose roof.
And those drains are too small to take all the water if the screws in the track are not sealed....don't know if BMW seals them but that's where my leak is. Neal
Even if your window weather seal was a problem, any e39 can get more water during a heavy rain than the sunroof front drains can handle...if you watch your roof when gently slamming a door closed (with the windows closed), see if the glass roof pops up a bit...
my leaky boat has a loose roof.
And those drains are too small to take all the water if the screws in the track are not sealed....don't know if BMW seals them but that's where my leak is. Neal
*update* incase anyone cares, I removed the door panel and the VB was intact in fine. However I did find the leak. And it is the windshield. if you push hard enough on the glass you can almost lift the upper portion away from the chassis. Having a new windshield installed as we speak, problem solved. It was suprising how loose the glass was. I could lift it almost enought to get my fingers from one side to another!!
Not a good thing to have when you live in one of the wettest citys in the states.
Not a good thing to have when you live in one of the wettest citys in the states.
Ditto...thanks for posting back with the culprit. It may help someone else some day. :thumbup:
No, it wasnt original. I got a new one installed for 180.00. To get the old one re installed it would be 85/hr for labor plus the cost of molding made that about 145.00. my windshield had 2 dime sized rock chips that i got the first day i owned my car.
Hi
I have a 2000 323 i. Just noticed wet carpet on the drivers side. No Rain. Hot sunny day. The passenger side was dry. The water seemed to be running down the tranny tunnel as my lower right trouser bottom was wet first, got my attention; I pulled the mat up and the water again seemed to be coming down the tranny tunnel.
Any ideas?
Thanks
I have a 2000 323 i. Just noticed wet carpet on the drivers side. No Rain. Hot sunny day. The passenger side was dry. The water seemed to be running down the tranny tunnel as my lower right trouser bottom was wet first, got my attention; I pulled the mat up and the water again seemed to be coming down the tranny tunnel.
Any ideas?
Thanks
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