What to tell people who say they don't have time, money, or tools to DIY E39 repairs!

bluebee · Mar 18, 2011

I received a PM a few days ago and (after removing identifying info), I post it here as a pointer to others in the future who have similar worries that they don't have either the time, the money, the tools, or the knowledge to DIY their E39 repairs.

Time
Tools
Money
Knowledge

REMOVED said:
I have no choice but have a mechanic fix my E39, for I have no metric tools, no lift, not even ramps or jack stands with which to facilitate getting under the car. I also have precious little time, and, most importantly, the car is my daily driver, meaning I must rely on others in my car pool should my car be inoperative for an extended period.

Here was my response, which I will, in the future, point others to who have the same dilemma.

To the team, please add your tribal knowledge so that this thread becomes a useful reference for the people who 'have no time, money, or tools' to fix their E39 themselves.

Here's what my long-winded response below boils down to:

Time
- For emergencies on an only car -> pay a mechanic
- For non emergencies, DIY on weekends -> round tuit required
- Planned maintenance DIYs eliminate most roadside emergencies -> a bonus!
Tools
- The tools are free
- In fact, tools pay for themselves, over time
- So, buy ALL the tools you need!
Money
- The money is always less to DIY ... even with the tools
- You have to fix the problem ... no matter what
- Your perception of your 'time value' might exceed the mechanic's shop rate
  - If that's the case, the real truth is you don't like to DIY
  - If you don't like to DIY, then don't pretend it's the tools or time or money or knowledge!
  - Note: These people (who don't like to DIY) call mechanics "grease monkeys"
Knowledge
- All the tribal knowledge you need is here
- Simply be someone worth imparting knowledge to
- And, give knowledge back, as freely as it was given to you

WARNING: Overly long-winded (but heartfelt) PM response follows!

bluebee said:
Time is the most important ingredient for emergencies; but, for the vast majority of DIYs, you 'find' the time (it's right next to the round Tuit on the dusty garage shelf).

As for the tools ... well ... at worst, they're absolutely free (and, at best, they pay YOU to do the job).

For money (which you didn't mention), OEM parts from our sponsors will cost (roughly) half of what you will pay a mechanic to install same, or equivalent (or even worse) part.

For knowledge (also, which you didn't mention), if I can do it, anyone can! And, even if I can't do it, there is someone here who has done it. Just be someone worth them spending their valuable time to help and they will patiently walk you through every single one of your DIY problems, one by one (ask me how I know).

Now for the details!

The tools are free because the labor to have someone else do the job almost always costs MORE than the tools to do that same job!

So, for example, if a four wheel brake job costs, say, $500 bucks in parts, and you need a bunch of tools to DIY install it (let's just say $200 bucks worth), then you're STILL AHEAD from the stealer (at something like $1000 bucks or more).

Plus, you do a better job; you learn about your car; you do extra cleanup work, you feel better, you're better equipped in emergencies, you're more knowledgeable when buying a new used car, you're more fun at parties, etc.

But, specifically related to the tools, they're quite free. In fact, they PAID YOU $300 in this scenario. And, when you do the brakes the second time, they pay you $500 in this scenario).

So, really, all the tools you want, are free (you never see me shirk from buying the right tools for the job ... just look at all the DIYs I've done and you see brand-new shiny tools in 'em all!).

Most tools are re-used so often, they are a money-making business!

Take the ramps. You can make your own, but, even if you bought super duper deluxe ramps, say, $75, they pay for themselves on the first job. And, it's a payment that keeps on giving. Even if the first job broke even due to initial tool costs, all other jobs amortize the cost of the ramps. Over and over and over again, the cost of the ramps drops to nothing. In fact, the ramps begin to pay for themselves on the second, and third, and fourth, and fifth job. WARNING: You have a BMW. There WILL BE a 2nd, 3rd, 4th ... nth. job. Trust me on that. The tools will be re-used!

If you read any of my DIYs, you'll see that I always bought the tools I needed. Just for starters, look at this brake thread:
- A user's very first complete 4-wheel brake DIY experience on the BMW E39 (1)

Not only was this my first post on Bimmerfest, but it was my first brake job in my life. You'll see shiny new torque wrenches, micrometers, dial gauges, disc-brake spreaders, and even an entire set of shiny socket allen wrenches (all I needed was the 7mm size but they don't sell just one). They were all free!

And look at this alternator thread:
- One users' example of total electrical failure (AAA towed away) alternator repair (1) (2)

Again, it was my first alternator repair in my life. I wish I had thought ahead and stockpiled the rebuild parts but this was an emergency. Luckily, I was planning ahead on a cooling system overhaul so you'll see a shiny new chrome steel 32mm wrench and a matching clutch counterhold tool, which not only was free for the belt-drive overhaul, but which paid for itself again when I subsequently did a cooling system overhaul two months later (in yet another roadside emergency where I had the parts stockpiled in my garage forewarned by the Bimmerfest team!).

And, most embarrassingly, just take a gander at my example of the world's worst oil changes:
- How not to do a gravity feed oil change (1) and how not to do a vacuum extraction oil change (1)

For the gravity-feed oil change, I busted a bolt. I thought I would die. If there was one time I wished to write a thread titled "HELP!", this was it. However, I resisted that urge and simply asked for advice. The team here instantly walked me through every step of the solution, folks like cn90 even drawing diagrams of Archimedes'like home-made bolt-removal tools! A friend the next day gave me a ride to the stealer. Ten dollars later I had a new bolt (everything is expensive at the stealer and the San Jose stealer is arguably the worst price-wise in the country!). Another fifteen dollars later, I had an entire shiny new set of variously sized bolt extractors. The old broken bolt was out in seconds; the shiny new bolt back in seconds (and a lesson-learned feather in my cap).

Even with the additional $25 incremental costs + $20 for lunch for my friend schlepping me about, I was still way ahead of an oil change at a mechanic (although certainly not if you count 'time').

Likewise, for the vacuum extraction oil change (although I bought the Motive based on favorable reviews on bimmerfest which, in my experience, were dead wrong. The Motive oil extractor is the worst vacuum extraction tool on the planet.
- Why I don't recommend the Motive vacuum oil extractor (1)

But, it still did my oil change for me. And, I used it just yesterday in a subsequent oil change with a case of Costco fully synthetic motor oil and a better filter (people convinced me to stop using the $20 STP filter in favor of the better $5 Mann filter).

The point is I had never done brakes or alternators or vacuum extraction in my entire life. Like you, I didn't have the right tools. But, I simply bought them. I made some mistakes (more than most); but the overall net is hugely positive in costs. The tools ARE free! I am GLAD I bought every one of them (and the toolbox drawers they go inside). Everyone buys their own tools. It's like having your own dog. It's just something you keep by your side every day. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

If you (insist?) on not buying the tools (which are, as I said, free), then you will NEVER DIY.

Time ...

TIME, on the other hand, isn't as easily solved as tools (time is never free), not even for this lengthy missive. But, time is, for non emergency things, generally allocated on weekends. Weekends are (supposed to be) free!

So, my only sympathy for you remains only on TIME for EMERGENCY repairs. For that, you are stuck with going to a professional (but even then, you never need to go to the stealer).

But, you can avoid most emergencies with a good timely DIY!

So, we're back to the DIY.

BTW, I absolutely HATE to waste effort! Since this is a private PM, I will NOT let out where it came from, but I will cut and paste this into a new thread to point others to.

We really should carry this conversation on in public so that others benefit and add to the tribal knowledge and nobody wastes their time on just one person.

doru · Mar 18, 2011

Blue, you try to make something complex out of a very simple thing:
"What to tell people who say they don't have time, money, or tools to DIY E39 repairs!"
The answer is : "Go to the stealer" or "Go to your indy"

psa · Mar 19, 2011

doru said:
Blue, you try to make something complex out of a very simple thing:

+1 million.....i noticed that too......

jdawg713 · Mar 18, 2011

I'm An Example

Bluebee,

4 months ago I purchased my first BMW, 1997 528i with 182k. The previous owner had some good service records and interior is pretty darn good for the age and I bought it at a decent price because she didn't want to pay a shop to do the work it needed.

Who can blame her really...according to her records they charged her $30 for a wiper insert that I purchased at my dealer for $3.

I found these forums and posted a response for a good shop in Atlanta because I never even changed the oil myself on my last car. (of course it was a lease and I never had any maintenance to do but oil change. But I don't have a car payment any more and I'm happy about that.) But I quickly realized that if I want to keep this BMW, the only cost effective maintenance is DIY. I had the Oil Filter Housing gasket replaced at a shop. That was a wake up call.

So thanks to the forum information and the encouragement from you and cn90 (mack answered a pm for me as well)...I have done a few DIY projects already and have parts for a few more.

So I went from not even changing my own oil to doing these projects:
1. CCV
2. Oil line to Vanos
3. Thermostat and housing (rest of cooling system was replaced by PO...don't know why shop didn't do thermo/housing at that time.)
4. Angel eye headlights to replace factory halogens.

And now I have parts for:

1. Power steering hose / reservoir replacement
2. Valve Cover gasket
3. Spark Plugs

And I'm considering tackling the Vanos while Im at it.

I have bought tools to do these jobs and they do indeed pay for themselves with the money you save by DIY.

I hope with my preventative maintenance and up keep, I can drive this machine for another 100k and beyond.

These forums and tenured posters are a tremendous help and non-DIY'ers just need to do a job or two and their confidence will grow like mine.

I probably won't DIY the suspension components, but most everything else I will more than likely attempt myself. Great learning experience :thumbup:

I already posted my Thank You to All DIY'ers that make this possible in another post but wanted to encourage those with little confidence here as well. It is possible if you can follow directions and have a reasonable amount of intelligence. If I can do it, anyone can.

Thanks again,

Jay

Fudman · Mar 18, 2011

+1,000

We were all newbies at one point. Every single e39 "DIY" mechanic has looked under the hood for the first time and thought, "What could be the problem and where do I start?" Life is a learning experience and so is a relationship with your car. Some folks lease a car and then dump it. Most e39 owners have a more longer term, "intimate" relationship with their vehicles. The e39 is a special high performance car with a rare combination of attributes. But if you send it out for everything, you better be rich. For those of more modest means, DIY allows us to experience ownership of a car that requires a fair amount of TLC to continue to run reliably.

WRT to maintenance, more is always better than less. You only need to get stuck once, on a dark road in the middle of the night, far away from civilization to realize that reliable safe transport is critical. Preventative maintenance will help to avoid that fate. DIY makes the maintenance affordable.

When it comes to tools, there are just two words: HARBOR FREIGHT. This place sells every tool you could possibly need (except the fan clutch holder) for one third the price of Sears. For the garage mechanic, they are more than serviceable for the level of work we do. For the more ambitious, go to Sears or Snap-On. But for the price, you can build a significant tool arsenal from HF. Always good to have several arrows in the quiver.

But when it comes to DIY, it's not the wand, it's the wizard. While you may feel a little intellectually challenged regarding your knowledge of your e39 and how to solve it's problems, it is all a few mouseclicks away on this forum. You have access to the collective knowledge of multiple shadetree mechanics who are aware of your apprehensions, as we have been there before ourselves.

Every journey starts with a step. So grab a wrench, log on and ask questions. We will walk you through it. And BB will link you to every known Internet posting on the topic (don't laugh, she has done so already). We are all on this forum for a single reason: The e39 is the best d@mn car we have ever driven and we all want to drive them forever. :thumbup:

Cirrusnine · Mar 18, 2011

Fudman, YOU ROCK!! :thumbup:

Very well said.

Fudman said:
+1,000

We were all newbies at one point. Every single e39 "DIY" mechanic has looked under the hood for the first time and thought, "What could be the problem and where do I start?" Life is a learning experience and so is a relationship with your car. Some folks lease a car and then dump it. Most e39 owners have a more longer term, "intimate" relationship with their vehicles. The e39 is a special high performance car with a rare combination of attributes. But if you send it out for everything, you better be rich. For those of more modest means, DIY allows us to experience ownership of a car that requires a fair amount of TLC to continue to run reliably.

WRT to maintenance, more is always better than less. You only need to get stuck once, on a dark road in the middle of the night, far away from civilization to realize that reliable safe transport is critical. Preventative maintenance will help to avoid that fate. DIY makes the maintenance affordable.

When it comes to tools, there are just two words: HARBOR FREIGHT. This place sells every tool you could possibly need (except the fan clutch holder) for one third the price of Sears. For the garage mechanic, they are more than serviceable for the level of work we do. For the more ambitious, go to Sears or Snap-On. But for the price, you can build a significant tool arsenal from HF. Always good to have several arrows in the quiver.

But when it comes to DIY, it's not the wand, it's the wizard. While you may feel a little intellectually challenged regarding your knowledge of your e39 and how to solve it's problems, it is all a few mouseclicks away on this forum. You have access to the collective knowledge of multiple shadetree mechanics who are aware of your apprehensions, as we have been there before ourselves.

Every journey starts with a step. So grab a wrench, log on and ask questions. We will walk you through it. And BB will link you to every known Internet posting on the topic (don't laugh, she has done so already). We are all on this forum for a single reason: The e39 is the best d@mn car we have ever driven and we all want to drive them forever. :thumbup:

WagonTheDog · Mar 18, 2011

Lol, kudos for your patience with such questions :thumbup:

Pardon me while I step up on a soap box, but it seems to me that in this fast-food culture of instant gratification we live in, if you don't have time, money, or tools, then you simply don't get an e-39 if you're looking for a reliable daily driver. I've driven a lot of cars in my time, and IMO, there's nothing I've driven that compares to sliding in behind the wheel of one of these cars which has been well maintained. No, there will be no cameo in Fast Five for me in a 528iAT, but IMO, the overall driving experience is simply unequaled.

What makes anyone think they're entitled to such a driving experience for the first 6k they shell out at a used car lot? If these cars didn't have so many ancillary components succumbing to the ravages of time and rotting off the car, they wouldn't be so cheap now, would they? There's a reason these cars started around 35k when they were brand new, but can be had for a fraction of the cost now...

While it's true, I happen to believe the best things in life are free, the same does not hold true of your driving experience. Owning, and perhaps more importantly, getting maximum enjoyment from an e39 requires due diligence and awareness of your responsibilities when it comes to continuing maintenance. That's it... No quick fix, no easy way out.

bulldoggg03 · Mar 18, 2011

WagonTheDog said:
Lol, kudos for your patience with such questions :thumbup:

What makes anyone think they're entitled to such a driving experience for the first 6k they shell out at a used car lot? If these cars didn't have so many ancillary components succumbing to the ravages of time and rotting off the car, they wouldn't be so cheap now, would they? There's a reason these cars started around 35k when they were brand new, but can be had for a fraction of the cost now...

I had a ford focus before the purchase of my E39. It was a 2000 year model. Let me be the first to say I never had an issue like issues I am having with my E39 and it was 2 yrs newer and purchased at a fraction of the cost of my 540i NEW. I am not dogging my car by anymeans. I love my 540. Wouldnt trade it for another. You are saying its a given that parts should rott off a car that was 35k brand new and thats why we can get them at a fraction of the cost. Why do they cost that much to begin with if they cant outlast any other car on the road. All for a driving experience that last 100k????? And I think your NEW price is a little low. 42k for 528 and 57k for the 540

People are getting a bit confused as to why people dont want to DIY. Just because YOU can doesnt mean I can. Who is to say I am not handicap and cant physically perform these DIY projects. What would you say then. It seems like everything that gets asked on this forum and I mean ANYTHING, gets answered with a DIY. If I am not asking how to do something but want someones opinion why on earth would you post a DIY. If I can log onto this website I think I would of thought how to ASK someone how to do something. And I havent seen to many post where someone offers a DIY and they say they cant afford it so we might want to take out the "I dont have the money part." I dont have a problem paying a good mech. Especially something I am unsure about or worried I might screw it up more.

AnotherGeezer · Mar 18, 2011

Q.) What to tell people who say they don't have time, money, or tools to DIY E39 repairs?

This assumes that if they cannot pony up the dough for tools, there's probably little chance they could also afford a mechanic to do it. I would then tell them to...

A.) Sell the E39 and buy a brand new Hondog.
Monthly payments are less expensive than monthly maintenance and payments. :thumbup:

BigCo540i · Mar 18, 2011

You respect what they tell you because you don't know what they have going on. And then mind your own business.

bobdmac · Mar 18, 2011

Basically, I agree with you. In a hypothetical one-on-one conversation, I would try to walk them through the pro's and con's, pointing out the arguments that Blueebee made, but if they still told me they'd rather pay to have someone else do the work, I'd respect that and leave it alone.

I have some ambivalence myself about how deep I want to get into DIY vs. paying for the work. I get a certain satisfaction out of doing the work myself, but there are other things that compete for my time and interest. So for me, there's always a question of trade-offs, and I figure it's not for me to judge how people weigh their own personal pro's and con's. Their lives are not mine.

terrystu · Mar 18, 2011

"What to tell people who say they don't have time, money, or tools to DIY E39 repairs! "

What do I tell them?
I say thank god for them! They are the people who sell or trade their E39's when things begin going wrong, which allows
people like us to purchase them at the right price.

Nothing here but gratitude!

.

edjack · Mar 18, 2011

One either aspires to wrench on his car, or not. Even a few of my very old friends are fed up with DIY, and prefer to farm it out.

ztom · Mar 19, 2011

+1
I enjoy working on cars. I think BMWs are nicely made and easy to work on, and it always amazes me how much it costs to have someone else do it.

manticore33 · Mar 18, 2011

You have to consider the mass target markets for the cars. Americans want utility. Americans typically want a car they can drive forever, never wash, barely touch, and it to last for 1,000,000 miles. Drive quality, build quality, and whatnot means nothing except that it will go when they start the car. As such, we see the droves of bland, boring cars that barely excite your trousers, but will be there and ready to drive every single morning. There is nothing wrong with that, but most enthusiasts want more.

Europeans want experience. The car has to "feel" and "behave" a certain way. Thus, BMW sells an experience (and for my fellow US posters, you bought a BMW for experience). To provide an "experience" you typically bend the rules and push the envelope. And, when you push the envelope, reliability starts to degrade and costs go up. Look at tires for instance, BMW does not recommend tire rotations due to the aggressive alignment of the car or the brake pads that stop well, yet dust like it is going out of style. And, I thought the bum cooling system where because of regulatory mandates (XXX % of recycled materials, etc), NOT BMW engineering? Even a crackpot Civic that is pushed to its limits starts to have reliability issues. Thus, BMW is willing to forgo reliability for experience, then mask it with ultra long warranties and CPO cars.

Everything has an opportunity cost. Some are monetary costs and others are time costs or others are a combination of both. If someone buys a highly integrated car that works as a system expecting not to either DIY or use a mechanic, they need to reconsider their position on getting dirty, pay up, or purchase something different. Most of the people on this forum want to save these cars and save the owner's as much money as possible. I too tire of the whines of my car is broken... FIX IT FOR ME, then off mechanic (after people wasted their time diagnosising the car)!

UsedBits · Mar 18, 2011

I have time - it is how I choose to spend it that matters.

I don't have metric tools, but yours is a compelling argument that they actually pay to buy them.

I don't have money, hence my angst with hiring others.

I don't have knowledge specific to the BMW. I've worked on cars (simple stuff) most of my life and am pretty good at diagnosing stuff. I regret not having been given an offer to work for a company selling a device that reads and displays ODB codes and can even change some of the operating parameters in an engine's programming.

All but the time part points to my being a DIYer. So what's wrong?

"The money is always less to DIY", Bluebee, in the original post

NOT TRUE. You fail to account for the recovery costs of DIY errors. These include, on top of the cost of a 'real' mechanic having to fix what you broke, the cost of the tow truck.

WagonTheDog · Mar 19, 2011

UsedBits said:
I don't have knowledge specific to the BMW. I've worked on cars (simple stuff) most of my life and am pretty good at diagnosing stuff.

Three or four months ago, I knew just about nothing about BMW's. Thanks to this forum, I've completed most of the top recommend DIY's, and feel confident there's nothing I can't tackle as long as I have an internet connection

These cars aren't very difficult to work on once you get the lay of the land, but then again, I grew up playing with Lego :rofl:

UsedBits said:
NOT TRUE. You fail to account for the recovery costs of DIY errors. These include, on top of the cost of a 'real' mechanic having to fix what you broke, the cost of the tow truck.

DIY errors are certainly something to be aware of, and few of us are perfect, myself included. Having said that, the worst mistake I've made was actually when I put a WP on my '96 B-Body SS. I plugged a radiator hose with a plastic grocery bag, and I forgot to pull it out when I put everything back together

When the car started heating up beyond what I knew to be normal, I realized in about 5 seconds what was going on, shut everything down, retrieved the bag from inside the radiator hose (it had almost been pulled into the radiator itself :yikes

, and disaster was averted.

Even if I would have needed a tow, I've got AAA :thumbup:

bulldoggg03 · Mar 18, 2011

+1 to the above

sent from my evo using bimmerapp

98540iA · Mar 19, 2011

If I could DIY everything, I would. However, I have a limited tool set and my garage is my dirt mountain driveway. I have always done my own oil changes, brakes and those "easy" fixes and maintenance jobs. If I can diagnose and fix it, I will. If I can diagnose it but it's too much for me to fix, at least I know EXACTLY what needs fixing and can instruct my indy to fix what needs fixing. Someday I hope to have a closed garage and an alternate car to use so I can tear my M62 apart, replace the timing chain guides and all associated parts/seals/gaskets myself instead of paying a mechanic $2500+ to do the job.
In the mean time, I check my oil ever few days, keep a close eye and ear on everything and I address any issue immediately because I love the car and want to keep the "experience" alive for years to come!
What do I tell people in regards to the OP? Nothing.... to each his/her own. I'll encourage them to do the easier jobs but everyone's comfort level is different so I certainly would not get down on anyone for not wanting to diy.

bulldoggg03 · Mar 19, 2011

98540iA said:
I'll encourage them to do the easier jobs but everyone's comfort level is different so I certainly would not get down on anyone for not wanting to diy.

+1million.

I can change oil, wiper blades, bulbs, the normal wear and tear stuff on a vehicle. When it comes down to pulling engines apart just cause there is a DIY doesnt mean everyone is comfortable with doing such a task.

194449 · Mar 19, 2011

I read this thread and find myself nodding agreement with every post.......weird. Devil is in the details Blue. It depends on the context and why the person says what they say.

As to DIY, even if you have tools and time & location to do the work, the tasks do sometimes involve situations that risk your life or limb. On top of that, we are not playing on a level field here. Some of us have dexterity, some of us are born doofuses, some of us have engineering degrees, and still some of us forget which way gravity pulls. Not a day passes on this forum without some new thread posted by a member who, in attempting to perform some routine maintenance procedure, ends up facing an emergency repair.

bluebee · Mar 19, 2011

pleiades said:
Devil is in the details Blue. It depends on the context and why the person says what they say

Yeah. I like the simple answers:

You don't have money for DIY? ... Then go to the dealer!
Sell the E39 and buy a brand new Hondog!
I ... don't recommend the E39 to anyone who is not able and willing to work on it
You respect what they tell ...then mind your own business!
No quick fix, no easy way out
maybe an e39 is not what you're looking for
because someone doesnt want to DIY ... doesnt mean they should be looked down upon
It depends on the context and why the person says what they say.
to each his/her own. I'll encourage them to do the easier jobs but everyone's comfort level is different
You fail to account for the recovery costs of DIY errors

Bear in mind though, philosophy is usually wordy until you boil it down to the succinctness of wisdom ... gained only through time and effort.

pleiades said:
Not a day passes on this forum without some new thread posted by a member who, in attempting to perform some routine maintenance procedure, ends up facing an emergency repair.

You mean like these faux pas?
- How not to do an E39 gravity feed oil change (1)
- How not to do an E39 vacuum extraction oil change (1)
- How not to repair the E39 leather seat stitching (1)
- How not to remove the mass air flow sensor (MAF) spring clip (1)
- How not to remove the large radiator hose connector spring clips (1)
- How not to repair your E39trunk wiring loom (1) [ how to do it right (1) ]
- How not to remove the nipple from the E39 radiator (broken radiator nipple)
- How not to put your E39 fan clutch back on (crooked fan clutch nut)
- How not to bleed your E39 cooling system (1) (broken bleeder screw)
- How not to replace your E39 thermostat (thermostat loom misplaced)
- How not to remove your E39 expansion tank (broken expansion tank nipple & cn90 repair)
- How not to replace your battery (1) (2) (3)
- How not to install rain sensors on the windshield glass (1)
- How not to remove the E39 MID (1) (2)
- How NOT to change the E39 battery (1) (2) (3)
- How not to install rain sensors on windshield glass (1)
etc.

Fudman · Mar 19, 2011

While DIY can be very satisfying, I wouldn't ever call it fun. I'd rather go fishing, skiing or play golf rather than crawl under my car. Like everything in life, it comes down to motivation. Money (or the lack thereof) is the greatest motivating factor to learning to DIY. Some may do it for the challenge, but those folks are rare. Most of us who DIY are simply trying to save $$.

When it comes to DIY, a man's got to know his limitations. Anyone with two hands can change a windshield wiper blade. Changing your oil requires some tools and a small amount of knowledge. Replacing your Vanos seals or suspension is another step up the chain of complexity. Life is full of choices. Paying someone else $70-$120+ per hour to do a relatively simple task is a sign of extreme laziness, too much money or a total lack of confidence in successfully completing the task. For the first two, those are personal choices. But for the latter, this forum can help you save some money if that is what is important to you. While there is always a level of risk involved in DIY, that risk is greatly reduced when you can learn from someone else's mistakes.

While I encourage people to DIY, it is ultimately a personal choice that is dependent upon many individual factors. There is no right or wrong choice here.

bulldoggg03 · Mar 19, 2011

Fudman said:
While DIY can be very satisfying, I wouldn't ever call it fun. I'd rather go fishing, skiing or play golf rather than crawl under my car. Like everything in life, it comes down to motivation. Money (or the lack thereof) is the greatest motivating factor to learning to DIY. Some may do it for the challenge, but those folks are rare. Most of us who DIY are simply trying to save $$.

When it comes to DIY, a man's got to know his limitations. Anyone with two hands can change a windshield wiper blade. Changing your oil requires some tools and a small amount of knowledge. Replacing your Vanos seals or suspension is another step up the chain of complexity. Life is full of choices. Paying someone else $70-$120+ per hour to do a relatively simple task is a sign of extreme laziness, too much money or a total lack of confidence in successfully completing the task. For the first two, those are personal choices. But for the latter, this forum can help you save some money if that is what is important to you. While there is always a level of risk involved in DIY, that risk is greatly reduced when you can learn from someone else's mistakes.

While I encourage people to DIY, it is ultimately a personal choice that is dependent upon many individual factors. There is no right or wrong choice here.

Cant agree with you more. Very well said

dms540i · Mar 19, 2011

Bluebee,
Just like you pointed out with oil, there are different camps here, too. I still consider myself a novice, but I've been DIY'n since my '68 Triumph. I happen to get a great deal of satisfaction from it. Some people can't be bothered. Some don't get the satisfaction from saving money, learning, and overcoming obstacles. Some, sadly, don't even like cars. If you are of the inclination to give it a try, start with a set of inexpensive tools, build yourself a set of ramps, and if nothing else change the oil & clean the car inside & out. Look at what's underneath the dirt, and if anything's leaking, broken, etc., realize there's nothing new under the sun and somebody has written about it somewhere on the internet and read up about it. Is it worth the reading? Well, what are you reading anyway? Even with this little knowledge you are that much better off when you do bring it in to a shop for repair. Or if you are so inclined, maybe you can find the new part and replace it yourself. Maybe the knowledge you collect long the way will help you out in an emergency situation. Depending on what camp you're in this will either ring true or be a waste of your precious time. I know it's no waste of my time! But what do they say about leading a horse to water?

bluebee · Mar 20, 2011

dms540i said:
there are different camps here, too

Our psychology assignment then, must be, what 'are' the DIY camps?

As usual, I'll take a stab at defining them, embarrassing myself in the process:

DIY anything and everything (ala, cn90)
DIY most things but not all (ala Fudman)
DIY only the easiest of things like oil changes
DIY nothing (for some stated reason)
- No money
- No time
- No tools (nor garage)
- No knowledge
- Worried about screwing up

Dunno if this covers 'em all or not. Whaddya' think?

BigCo540i · Mar 20, 2011

You forgot one "camp" - DIY nothing because they have plenty of money and little time.

energizedmortal · Mar 20, 2011

diy, indy, stealer, or sell it

Edgy36-39 · Mar 21, 2011

Interesting thread. I've got no mechanical skills, yet have saved lots of money and learned to appreciate my cars more through simple DIY jobs. Which I then enjoy writing up on my blog.

To me, the only inexcusable thing is to remain ignorant. It's so easy to learn what needs to be done. Then you can DIY, or be an educated customer when you have the work done for you.

bluebee · Aug 12, 2011

For the record, today, another newbie, faced with a brake job & cooling system overhaul, declined both, apparently, because the dealer charged too much:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > Price quote for Cooling overhaul - $1800?

98540iA said:
What you guys don't seem to take into consideration is that not everyone has tools, a place to work on the car and/or the skills and confidence to work on the car.

I sure wish I had more of all of this and I do my own brake work but it certainly wouldn't take me 35 minutes to do all 4 brake pads. Probably more like 3.5 hours for me

What he didn't know what the whole point of the secret embedded in this thread!

- E39 (1997 - 2003) > Tools for replacing disk rotors and pads

194449 · Aug 12, 2011

I need a trailer to haul my tools and spare parts around....

bluebee · Aug 12, 2011

For the record, someone asked today if $1,800 was too much for a particular repair (which most of us do for far less in parts + tools) and then argued that he didn't have the tools or time or space to DIY:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > Price quote for Cooling overhaul - $1800?

When I tried to explain that the tools pay for themselves, someone else argued that the tools aren't actually 'free'.

My response (suitable for this thread) was:

98540iA said:
whoever says they can do that is delusional

Just gathering the stuff together to do the job right took me about that long!

It 'can' be done in half an hour - but - you'd have to be mighty fast and not do a good job, in the end, as it takes a while to properly check the caliper pins, mic the rotors, check runout, grease the skids, torque to specs, etc.

My very first brake job took weeks of research (elapsed time) and a couple of days in the air (again, elapsed time).

But, that entailed looking up everything there was to know about doing a brake job correctly:
- Learning required to do your first brake job correctly (1)

My second brake job took just a few hours (nothing left to learn).

I helped a no-nonsense friend do his afterward, and even that took an hour.

98540iA said:
What works for you does not necessarily work for someone else.....

Understood.

But he's the one who asked if $1800 was a good price; and I was just giving the answer that I would recommend to my own friends (and which was recommended to me).

So, I'm not 'totally' off the wall recommending a DIY, am I?

98540iA said:
Everyone has their own skill and comfort level

I fully understand that also.

Nobody can be less skillful or less comfortable with cars than I am!

(Do you want me to list my mistakes?).

So, my point was, "if I can do it, so can the OP". But, I'm not going to twist his arm. I just gave him the same arguments that worked on me.

98540iA said:
"What to tell people who say they don't have time, money or tools to DIY" is an opinion that has the potential of being an insult.

Hmmmmmm... I never thought of it that way.

I was thinking of it as a set of intelligent discussions to explain to newbies that doing the work yourself has tremendous benefits over paying someone else to do the work for you (benefits that are not just in dollars).

98540iA said:
why are you saying the tools are free? Because they pay for themselves after even just one use? That still does not make them free

The point (made in that thread) was that it costs X to pay a mechanic to do the job if you don't have the tools. However, in many cases (see the thread for details), it actually costs (sometimes far) less than X to just do it yourself (buying the necessary tools).

If you need the repair, it costs less with the tools than it does without the tools.

If someone is simultaneously complaining that it costs too much to have a mechanic do the work - and then - that they don't have the tools - so they have to pay the mechanic ... my answer is ...

The tools actually save you money.

98540iA said:
you aren't fooling anyone anyways because we all know tools are not free.

Ummm... your take is different than mine. I didn't think I was 'fooling' anyone.

BTW, in the referenced thread, there 'are' also free tools listed, e.g., AutoZone deposit-and-lend tool sets for struts, oxygen sensors, screw extraction kits, etc.

Plus, if you're handy, making some of the tools out of garage door components is also 'free':
- How to make your own BMW cooling system overhaul fan clutch nut counterhold tools (1) (2)
- How to make your own BMW thrust bushing tool (1) or buy them (1) (2) or improvise (1)
- How to make your own BMW car ramps (1)
- How to make your own BMW subframe & differential bushings tool (1)
- How to make your own BMW oxygen sensor removal tool (1)
- How to make your own BMW single-VANOS solonoid socket tool (1)
- How to make your own BMW camber & toe-in alignment tools (1)
- How to make your own BMW hella headlight adjusters (1) (2)
- How to make your own BMW rtab removal tool (1)
- How to make your own BMW upper timing chain locking tool (1)
- How to make your own BMW flywheel locking tool

MurrayP · Aug 13, 2011

Thank you bluebee

I have been checking out Bimmerfest as a hobby for a few years now. Always wanted a BMW and finally bought my first one a few weeks ago (1998 540i M62). The PO spent $22K since 2003 (I have all service records) and was the 2nd owner (I'm the 3rd). When I drove the car home from Toronto to Kingston (Ontario) on one of the hotest days of the year I was sure she was going to fail (the PO explained that she had been leaking a little coolant and I thought it might be valley pan - turns out I was right thanks to this forum) as I was well familiar with all of the failure modes from hours of research here. After about 1 1/2 hrs of bumper to bumper and then 2.5 hrs of clear sailing on the 401, I was able to relax a little and came to realize that this car had an amazing solid feel and fantastic acceleration (crusing for short times at 160 kph was a breeze). Pretty impressive for a 13 year old car with 258K KM on her. Oh yes, on the east side of Toronto I stopped in to a BMW dealer for an oil change as the dip stick wasn't showing any! An hour later and $170 lighter I was on my way home...

I made it home that day without incident and have been polishing her for about 2 weeks now (her body is stained with years of tree tar that will not come out even with wet sanding). I have her parked in my garage and am not planning to drive her much as she is not my daily drive. I have been thinking that maybe I should just sell her for $5-6K (paid $3,800) as I am not cut out for DIY but you and the many other experts on this forum (Edjack for example and dozens more) have given me confidence to at least try to live my dream and embrace this wonderful piece of automotive technology/history.

I read most of this thread and was really impressed by many of the contributors. It is clear that this is a community of folks who share a common bond (E39) regardless of how different their opinions and beliefs may be. I have 10s of hours, maybe hundreds, invested in this forum (reading not posting) and have developed a true appreciation for most of the folks who take the time to post, particularly those who contribute their knowledge so that newbees like me can benefit.

So, in closing, THANK YOU bluebee and all the other experts who give so freely of themselves for the benefit of the E39 community. I think I just my keep her for the long term!

Regards,
Murray

98540iA · Aug 13, 2011

^^ you will have to drive her often and hard if you want her to stay healthy. If it becomes a weekend only or worse, once a month drive, then all sorts of things will start falling apart. These cars are happiest when driven and driven hard. You have a great model and year (I'm biased) and I encourage you to fall in love with her...... you won't want to drive anything else if you do. I bought mine with 46k miles and am the second owner and I put on 50-100 miles every day.... and some days 250+. I've taken it on multiple road trips and it has not let me down. I have had to put a good amount of money maintaining and updating the engine, cooling system, tranny and suspension but it's all worth it because today it's stronger and more fun than ever.

Alabama John · Aug 13, 2011

I do not work on mine at all.

What I did was spend the time finding folks that do work on them at a reasonable charge. Others have done the same. Saw one get a transmission swapped and put in for 700.00 total. What a difference from the dealer that wanted $6000.00 and some others that were in the thousands also. Where those on here like to swap ideas of how to do things yourselves and that is great, there is also a circle of BMW owners that do the same thing but with information of where to get it done but they don't have a web site.

Its amazing the difference in cost from place to place and there are those that enjoy doing it and have all the tools that make a dollar or two enjoying themselves and that's great too! They smile when they see us coming to their home or garage or basement.

I do what I do well and the folks that work on my BMW would be lost trying to do what I do for a living and its vice versa.

In my time off and at home from constructing things, I prefer to spend it with grandchildren and not under a hood.

Too each his own I say!

Boostted · Aug 14, 2011

There are only two types of people who should buy german cars, especially used german cars;

1. People who can afford to pay for the maintenance
2. Car people who can do 50-75% of the maintenance

If you dont fall into either of the categories, you are going to be broke all the time, or left stranded somewhere.

Hellpuppy · Aug 14, 2011

I totally agree with this. This has been my experience with German cars (BMWs, VWs and Porsches, although even I won't touch an Audi). As for tools paying for themselves, I sprung a couple of years ago for a hydraulic lift and wouldn't trade it now for anything. It makes a tough job easy and an easy job fun. And it makes ownership of an old car feasible. I can't imagine living without it.

What to tell people who say they don't have time, money, or tools to DIY E39 repairs!

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